Confused on Layer Order...I think

Question

Confused on Layer Order...I think

Hi Everyone,

I'm really seriously embarrassed to even be asking this question. I feel like it is super remedial and with all the tutorials I've done, watched and bought I feel like this should not be a problem for me. I don't even know how to word the question...so please forgive me ahead of time.

Let me explain what I am trying to do. I want to have an explosion come in from space and hit a "shield" so it basically just ends up exploding at the window. As you can see from the screenshot the fire and smoke actually go into the cockpit instead of staying outside.

I first tried this in Final Cut first. I'm a tiny bit more proficient with it than Motion. I made two copies of the cockpit, masking off the actual cockpit itself, leaving only the window and put the fire composite in between the two copies. It didn't really work out like I wanted and besides that I felt the composite itself needed some Z space adjustments anyways.

So, I started to work on it in Motion. I tried the same concept. But no matter where I move the composite it either ends up going into the cockpit or it disappears (assuming due to layer order) completely.

May I please get some guidance on how to achieve what I want to do? I've looked all over for a tutorial of some sort and I really can't find anything on what I am looking to do. Besides that, I'm not even sure I'm going about this the right way anyway. Thank you so much for any help or guidance!!

Posted on Oct 10, 2024 8:48 PM

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Answer 1

Top-ranking reply

fox_m

Level 6

12,595 points

Oct 24, 2024 8:00 PM in response to Creator_needs_help

Well... there could be a few problems. The first and most obvious is that the Clouds layer would be *behind* the "space-shuttle-rocket-launch" clips in your arrangement. It needs to be moved up to just under the Clone Cockpit IF there is no transparency in those clips to allow the Clouds to show through (and there probably isn't any transparency unless they're ProRes 4444 clips.)

Next... I don't see the Ramp behaviors that control the Clouds 1) Scale and 2) Opacity. IF you added a Ramp at some point to the Scale and set the Start Value to 0, sometimes when you remove the Ramp, the parameter can get "stuck" at the Ramp's initial Start Value... which would be a Scale of 0%. The same might happen with the Opacity. The result in both cases is that the Clouds layer would not appear. Check these parameters to make sure they are not 0. If you prefer to keyframe the effects, make sure they are keyframed "through" 100% at some point in the animation.

BTW - Thank you for your order today!

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Answer 2

fox_m

Level 6

12,595 points

Oct 11, 2024 7:31 PM in response to Creator_needs_help

A lot of people bash Motion comparing it to Adobe's After Effects. I've used AE — I prefer Motion, and so, I'm an advocate as much as I can be.

Is this about what you're going for?

This is not (technically) 3D.

Here's the layer setup:

I had to make an explosion from a Clouds generator because I didn't have a decent one available...

There are two basic layers: spaceship-cockpit and the Clouds-explosion layer. A clone of the spaceship-cockpit layer is needed to provide the "glass" through which the explosion is viewed. The windows require masking like so, BUT instead of masking the image or clone directly, the **Group** containing the explosion and the cloned cockpit is masked *using* the cockpit image... get it? We're blending the "glass" of the cockpit as part of the explosion. [Group 1 contains everything.]

(Notice I didn't really go to a lot of trouble masking the edges... you don't have to overwork or overthink this.)

All Blend Modes are set to Normal EXCEPT for the Clone cockpit layer which is set to Linear Dodge so it can blend with the explosion graphic.

After the setup, it's just a matter of animating the explosion and the interior lighting that occurs as the explosion passes.

To the Clouds generator, I added various filters (Twirl, Levels, Relief, Sphere, and 3 Light Rays). I set the color gradient to be Yellow -> bright red -> dark red. To animate it, I added a Ramp to the Scale parameter from 0% to 520% (this will depend on the size of your original explosion) and a Ramp to the Opacity as it fades as it passes [Start Value 0, End Value -100]. The End Offsets were dialed up to make the Scale time ~ 1.5 seconds and the Opacity fade ~2/3's second. All this is variable depending on what you want.

To the original (bottom) spaceship cockpit I added a Tint filter and simply keyframed it to animate the Mix from 0 to 100 back to 0 to simulate how the interior of the cockpit would light up as the explosion passes.

I would recommend adding a little bit of "shake" [Earthquake] roughly matching the Tint animation.

I hope I covered everything.

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Answer 3

fox_m

Level 6

12,595 points

Oct 10, 2024 11:02 PM in response to Creator_needs_help

In 2D Motion, Layer order starts at the bottom of the layers list and goes up. Whatever is on top is what is "in front" of everything else. [BTW, if you're "stacking" Effects in Final Cut, it's exactly the opposite - layer order is from the top of the Effects Inspector, down -- that includes the Transform, Crop and Distortion tools which always come after user added effects.]

In 3D Motion, order is by "Z Position" ("line of sight [through the center] opposed to X/horizontal and Y/vertical). Whatever has the greatest z-position is what is in front. What makes it different is that all the 3D layers can interact visually — like one object coming through, from behind, another, which will not be possible with 2D layer ordering.

From what I see in your screenshot, you have 3 video clips which are "flat". You should be able to do what you want to do by putting the explosion clip under the cockpit clip and changing the blend mode so that you see the details of the cockpit as well as the explosion (underneath). Start with Add or Screen (maybe Linear Dodge). Try Overlay and Vivid Light. Pick which blend mode suits your tastes.

If none of this was what you were talking about... I probably need more information.

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Answer 4

Oct 24, 2024 6:15 PM in response to fox_m

Hey Fox...I'm baaaack! Told you it wouldn't be long!

Ok here's where I'm at. The clone layer worked perfectly for what I wanted to do. In fact, you can see the effect in Example 2...exactly what I wanted! Thank you!

Here's the rub, if you will. I now also want to use the clouds generator in the composition/project. I started adding some of the effects you mentioned (no idea on parameter settings or how the parameter settings affect things - so all I'm doing is just playing really-but I think that's how you kinda learn Motion though, right?) I was kind of starting to like what was happening (looked nothing like yours, but it was showing some promise) - I was really still in the process of tweaking it when we wanted to see if the video of the rocket would show on the "other side of the window" (the whole reason for the original post) ...which it did and does! I really wanted to have a "shield" effect - but I can't find a video or effect that shoots straight at the screen or in this case the window. But anyways, that's a different problem and I digress...after I added the video of the rocket, I lost the clouds generator.

As you can see in Example 1 I turned everything off in the layer and there are still no clouds showing in the window. I have gone through every combination I can think of as far as turning the different layers on and off. I have moved the layer order all around and I'm still having no luck. Can you tell what I might be doing wrong?

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Answer 5

Oct 11, 2024 5:44 PM in response to fox_m

Hey Fox_m!!

You know, I don't understand why you help all of us like you do...but you're seriously like some kind of an amazing human being for always being here. That's all I can say. Thank you for answering.

I've been playing with this all day. I even went and did a tutorial from AV Ultra called 3D Layers in Apple Motion. Just to see exactly everything you told me at work in real time. Which of course it did. But I just can't make it work on/in my own composition.

Here's what I'm thinking. Everything I am working with are videos. No graphics. The cockpit I designed in Illustrator...self taught btw. I seem to be able to understand that better than Motion! I digress...

The cockpit is in Illustrator with HUD elements from motionvfx. It had so many layers I had to export it out as a .mov file because the brand new computer didn't like all those layers for whatever reason. I'm thinking I should bring in two png files out of Illustrator. One of the cockpit, the other of just the window area. I will make the background layer the video of the stars. Then bring in the fireball composite and work with it in 3D so I can use it the way I want. I can make another .mov file of just the HUD elements and overlay it in the cockpit where it should go.

Right now no matter what layer I move it too or what blend modes I apply, the fireball enters into the cockpit itself. What do you think of my plan? Or do you have any other ideas?

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Answer 6

Oct 11, 2024 8:00 PM in response to Creator_needs_help

Wow. Seriously? Thank you so much for taking the time to do all of that and explain it so perfectly for me. Yes, that is pretty much what I wanted to do. I need to really study it, but I can see that it works - so now I just need to go in and make it work for myself.

I save everything I get from you. I have needed to do other flashing things and I have gone back to your example using the Oscillate behavior a few times now. I have a feeling this post will be something I reference back to as well. I wish there was some way I could thank you for all the times you've saved me from seriously having a mental breakdown :) I guess the only way I know at this point is to just stick with it and become proficient at Motion and somehow make you proud. lol

Have a great night!

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Answer 7

Oct 24, 2024 8:07 PM in response to fox_m

Ok - let me go in and check all that out and see what's going on based on your feedback.

You're super welcome! Not only do they look like they will be really helpful - I got to give back and that was what I really wanted. Thanks again!

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Answer 8

fox_m

Level 6

12,595 points

Oct 11, 2024 8:22 PM in response to Creator_needs_help

You have a great night too! It gets easier :D

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